Complete transcript of PM Masrour Barzani's Special Session at MEPS24
Nov. 23, 2024
ERBIL (Kurdistan24) – Kurdistan Region Prime Minister Masrour Barzani highlighted the importance of U.S.-Kurdistan relations and the need for peaceful conflict resolutions during a special session at MEPS24.
Below is the full transcript of the session.
A warm and helpful welcome for the prime minister of Kurdistan Region and the chairman of the board of trustees of the American University of Kurdistan, His Excellency Masrour Barzani.
Ms. Hadley Gamble: Good afternoon everybody and once again welcome. We are very excited to be seated on this stage, and I am thrilled to say this is my first visit, to this part of the world and it has been so far a very interesting dynamic and beautiful experience. So thank you so much. Prime minister, I'd like to kick off by asking you to walk us through how you see the election of Donald Trump playing out in this part of the world and specifically what it means for your government.
PM Masrour Barzani: Well, thank you for this opportunity. Obviously, we congratulate the United States for having a successful election. This is a decision for the American people to decide what kind of a government they want. But obviously, as you said, decision made in the United States, have an effect on, the globe and definitely on our region as well. We have had an experience with the previous government of President Trump. And, this time also we are hoping that, the US Administration is going to maintain good relations with the region, with Iraq, and in particular with the Kurdistan region that's been a very, credible, partner with the United States in the fight against terrorism and also in promoting peace and developing the shared values and principle that we have with each other. It is a little premature to decide how it will play out. We have to wait until the whole cabinet is picked and decided. But we definitely have friends among people that we hear are being considered to, be in the next government.
Ms. Hadley Gamble: So you're seeing encouraging signs so far?
PM Masrour Barzani: Well, I would like to be optimistic. Yes.
Ms. Hadley Gamble: In your mind, when you take a step back and think about what happens next, obviously, it's difficult to foresee the next couple of years, but president-elect Trump has said that he will end all the conflicts happening right now in the world, and he specifically mentioned that in the Middle East and those in Europe. Do you believe that that's an achievable goal?
PM Masrour Barzani: Well, I hope that there will be peaceful solutions to every ongoing conflict and war. However that's achieved, I believe it will serve, the people of those countries that are suffering from the ongoing wars now. But, I hope that these decisions are made in consultation with the parties involved, that the interest of the people are going to be taken into account. I don't know how, you know, this is going to be done. We hear that through force, peace can be promoted. Maybe that's the policy of this new administration. We have to wait and see. But in any case, we do believe that, peace is going to be better than, than war anyway.
Ms. Hadley Gamble: Are you worried about the possibility that Baghdad will be drawn into this conflict? We've already seen, overt and behind closed doors pressure coming from Israel, towards Baghdad.
PM Masrour Barzani: Of course we are we are worried and we are concerned about what's happening. We don't want Iraq to be dragged into this war. We don't think that this is an Iraqi war. We believe that if Iraq can play a constructive positive role in promoting peace and bringing sides together, that's good. But to, add fuel to the fire and to, make things more complicated, to, expand the war and conflict, it's not going to be in the best interest of the Iraqi people. And I hope that the Iraqi government will, look at the interest of the Iraqi people more than the interest of anyone else.
Ms. Hadley Gamble: President-elect Trump has made no secret of his support for Israel and its government, particularly its prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu, a man who has just been, sanctioned by the International Criminal Court. Do you believe that will be a barrier to peace?
PM Masrour Barzani: Well, I don't know. But, I believe what you know, any step towards promoting peace must be supported. And anything that distract peace or any initiative should be reconsidered. So I don't know exactly, you know, how this is going to play out, but I do believe that the players must come to, some agreement that there must be different ways of reaching a sustainable solution to the ongoing conflicts.
Ms. Hadley Gamble: Walk me through this one. There are many schools of thought on this, but to your mind, how difficult is it going to be, for Iraq, for the Iraqi people, and frankly for the stability of the region, if president-elect Trump decides to withdraw US troops from Iraq?
PM Masrour Barzani: Well, look, the US troops were in Iraq based on the invitation from the Iraqi government, and there was a reason. There was ISIS terrorism that was threatening the security of the region and actually the security of the whole world. We have that first experience here in Kurdistan, and now, Peshmerga, we're fighting ISIS, and we wanted the coalition forces, the Americans to come to our help and assist us, and they thankfully did. There was a coalition of forces that came to support Iraq and within Iraq, Kurdistan. Now if the overall assessment of terrorism has changed and if Iraq believes that terrorism has come to an end, therefore we don't need American troops here or we need to end the mission of the coalition forces. That's a different situation. And we may have different ideas to be frank with you. We don't think that terrorism has come to an end. We think that still ISIS is intact and they have active members. They are active in different parts of not only in Iraq but in the region, elsewhere in the world, and, we need to have that global coalition to fight terrorism. Now in in terms of organizing or reviewing the relationship of Iraq with the coalition forces, can be different than what, it's been, you know, said. If the mission is no longer needed because Iraq feels it's stronger today and it can face the challenges and control the security situation in the country. That doesn't mean that the relationship between Iraq and the United States will come to an end. So ending the ending the coalition forces or the coalition mission doesn't mean the end of US-Iraqi relationship, even military relationship. So we hope that for as long as Iraq can manage its relationship with all of its partners, whether it's the United States, UK, France, Germany, Italy, any other European country, on bilateral levels to maintain the good relations where Iraq can benefit from the friendship that is developed with, all these partners, we believe that, there is a way that can manage and perhaps be less risky in terms of, you know, looking at whether or not the security situation is going to be affected by the departure of the coalition forces.
Ms. Hadley Gamble: Would it surprise you if, US troops were to stay outside of a coalition, perhaps, in some arrangement.
PM Masrour Barzani: Whether this would surprise me?
Ms. Hadley Gamble: Mhmm. No?
PM Masrour Barzani: No. No. Look, US is staying in many other countries in the region, not only in Iraq, but in many other Middle Eastern countries. We have US forces. So it's very normal for the US forces to stay in Iraq and have bilateral relations with Baghdad.
Ms. Hadley Gamble: When you take a step back and look at what's happened over the last several years, the chaos that's ensued under, frankly, the leadership of the Biden administration in Washington, many people would say the catalyst for president Putin's invasion of Ukraine and what's been happening in Gaza was, US inaction and US failure with the withdrawal from Afghanistan. In your mind, has that set a precedent for US, activity in the region?
PM Masrour Barzani: Can you repeat your question?
Ms. Hadley Gamble: In your mind, did the disastrous withdrawal by the Biden administration from Afghanistan set a precedent for US activity in this region?
PM Masrour Barzani: Well, I think any unilateral decision is not going to be, the best decision in my view. You know, US was invited by the Iraqis, and any departure has to be mutually agreed. The mechanism, the timing, and the way that it needs to depart. But any unilateral decisions, while we have so many pressing issues, is going to cause new problems. And we have had this experience in 2011. In 2011, when the US pulled out their forces, even then, we didn't think that was the best decision, and we anticipated that US will come back but at a higher cost, which was the case because, you know, the vacuum, left after the US pulled out their troops was filled by ISIS and other terrorist organizations. And US had to come back once again. So I hope that, you know, there are there are good decisions and well calculated decisions. If US wants to pull out, it needs… we need to look at what would be the alternative and how those vacuums created behind are going to be filled. We don't want to create another problem.
Ms. Hadley Gamble: What's the best case scenario in your mind for your government from a Trump administration? What would you like to see them do?
PM Masrour Barzani: In Kurdistan region? Well, we have very good relations with the United States. We want to continue having good relations. We want to continue having security cooperation. We want to continue and develop economic relations with the United States. The more development in the region means more stability, and, more economic stability leads to more political stability and definitely to more security. So more US engagement in the region, I believe, is going to help the region.
Ms. Hadley Gamble: Talk to me about what's happening today with the oil law. What is the status of that legislation?
PM Masrour Barzani: Iraq doesn't have an oil law. We have a law that, belongs to the, Saddam's era, which is designed for a central government. It doesn't help a federal system. We have a federal country today. We have a federal system. That centralized law is not helpful in organizing relations between Baghdad and Erbil. And unfortunately, after Baghdad decided to abolish all the previous laws, there is this law still in place, which is shocking, and we need to replace that with a new law. There was a draft, back in 2007, but unfortunately, it was never passed through the parliament. We still believe that we need to have a modern law that is good for a federal system. And once we have that, I believe we can overcome many of the existing problems between Baghdad and Erbil.
Ms. Hadley Gamble: Walk us through how much the failure to export is hurting your government? And I'm talking to the tune of $20,000,000,000 that you've lost so far?
PM Masrour Barzani: Yes. Almost every month we lose a 1,000,000,000. So it's over $20,000,000,000 that we've lost as a result of the export of…
Ms. Hadley Gamble: They're bleeding you dry.
PM Masrour Barzani: Sorry?
Ms. Hadley Gamble: They're bleeding you dry.
PM Masrour Barzani: Well, unfortunately, this is hurting the rest of the country as well. But definitely, the biggest, part of the country that's suffering is Kurdistan. Unfortunately, the losses that we have suffered are not being compensated. And so, you know, we see the delays in the salary payment. We see a reduction in the, revenues of the overall Iraqi revenues, which is not in the interest of the federal government nor in the Kurdistan region.
Ms. Hadley Gamble: Yeah. Baghdad seems to characterize this, shutdown of your exports as, a way to assuage fears in the broader OPEC plus group about their production concerns. And I'm talking about the fact that they want Baghdad to stick to its production numbers just like every other member of OPEC plus is supposed to. In your mind, is that a fair assessment to put that on you?
PM Masrour Barzani: No. Look, Iraq is producing a certain amount of oil barrels per day, and they have a quota in OPEC. But I can say that what we produce in Kurdistan is much less than what we deserve according to the percentage that Kurdistan is entitled to produce. So let's assume that Iraq is producing more than 4,000,000 or 4,500,000 barrels per day. Now the numbers have changed, though. But Kurdistan is entitled to produce at least, you know, 500,000 barrels. We are producing even less than half of that. So to tell us to reduce production, it's not fair because, you know, the overall Iraqi production of oil needs to be reduced according to the quotas design for Iraq, and it doesn't have to always come on, you know, at the cost of the production in Kurdistan.
Ms. Hadley Gamble: How concerned are you by the fact that global oil production and global oil prices are, frankly, falling? Because that will impact your mind as well.
PM Masrour Barzani: We are concerned, but let me tell you one thing. We in Kurdistan have realized that depending on oil, as the only revenue for the country is always going to be problematic because the price of oil is not designed by the country. There is a global market for it. So it could go up, it could go down. When price of oil is high, then Iraq can benefit. But when it's down, you know, it's going to affect the, function of the government because the budget is not going to, basically, you know, be able to support the government's, you know, functions. In Kurdistan, we've realized that. That's why we try to diversify our economy. We try to look at different sources of revenues to invest in agriculture, invest in different industries, invest in tourism to make sure that even if oil is no longer the only revenue or, you know, it's not generating enough revenues for us. We have different sources of revenue. I believe that Iraq should have done that. And we look at different parts of the world, especially the oil producers. They're using the revenues generated from oil and investing in different sectors so that to secure different sources for revenues for themselves when even, you know, oil is, dried out and no longer is available. Iraq is not at that stage and that is concerning. We are concerned about that, but we strongly encourage the federal government in Baghdad. And we certainly, in Kurdistan, are focusing on how we should diversify our economy to at least reduce the influence of the oil price on our economy.
Ms. Hadley Gamble: There's a concern that, those here in your part of the world are trucking refined product to Iran. In your mind, is that a practice that should be stopped? Because that is a country, of course, that is under international sanctions.
PM Masrour Barzani: Well, the sanctions have been imposed, and I don't think that now, there is anything legally going through Iran. So it's been stopped, you know, after the new sanctions on the productions, not only on the oil, but on the productions that has been imposed. There has been a decision not to send any of, you know, those products to Iran.
Ms. Hadley Gamble: So to your knowledge that isn't happening?
PM Masrour Barzani: Illegally it may be happening in some places, but not under our control.
Ms. Hadley Gamble: Walk me through this. You mentioned, other partners and finding other partners for investment. Obviously, the conversation earlier in the day surrounded China's influence in this part of the world, symbiosis, with the United States on multiple issues and how that's evolving and may evolve under a new administration in Washington. Does the current attitude towards China coming from Washington hurt your government in terms of investment?
PM Masrour Barzani: In what sense?
Ms. Hadley Gamble: Well, does it keep you from partnering with countries like China that US may have a problem with from time to time?
PM Masrour Barzani: Look, we have, good relations with the United States and with all of our western friends, but does that doesn't mean that we can't have good relations with China or any other country in the world. We have a free economy, and we are inviting anyone to come and invest in our region, and we hope that our friends would compete over who can come and invest first in Kurdistan. But if someone doesn't want to come and invest, they shouldn't be able to stop others to come and invest.
Ms. Hadley Gamble: So a trade war from with China, how does that impact you?
PM Masrour Barzani: Well, Chinese are in Iraq and also in Kurdistan. They're already investing, and we have a law of investment. And whoever is complying and accepting our regulations and will you know, is wishing to invest in Kurdistan is welcome.
Ms. Hadley Gamble: This has been an argument, of course, that the United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia and Qatar have faced as well, pressure from the United States not to partner with China on a variety of issues, and technologies, for example. Do you get…
PM Masrour Barzani: To be fair to be fair, we are not being pressured to not, you know, have investments from the Chinese by the Americans or the Western countries.
Ms. Hadley Gamble: How would you characterize it? Discouraged?
PM Masrour Barzani: Well, you know, we're obviously, anyone would be interested in, coming and investing themselves, so we encourage them to come and invest if they want to. But no one's, you know, forced us to not, you know, have relations with China if they wish to invest in in our region.
Ms. Hadley Gamble: Given the current state of global affairs, do you think that this will force the United States to be more pragmatic in its approach?
PM Masrour Barzani: Well, I think they have to be because look, Chinese are investing in the United States. Chinese are investing in Europe. Why can't they invest in our region? I mean, that's a question. Right? So whenever you answer that question, I'll answer the rest of your questions.
Ms. Hadley Gamble: Talk to me a bit about your relationship today with Turkey. Is that a complex relationship?
PM Masrour Barzani: We have good relations with Turkey. We have good economic trade and relations with Turkey. We have good understanding on the security situation in the region. And, we are also encouraged by the fact that Turkey is looking at different peaceful ways to sort out their problems in the region. Yeah. So I would characterize our relations with Turkey as good and even better.
Ms. Hadley Gamble: Yeah. And Russia?
PM Masrour Barzani: With Russia also, we have, we have normal relations. We have Russian companies operating in Kurdistan. We have, Rosneft and Gazpromneft that are already operating in in Kurdistan region and the rest of Europe.
Ms. Hadley Gamble: I wanna get a sense from you of how you see, the regional dynamics changing and particularly with regards to Syria. Obviously, over the last several months, we've seen an increased number of visits between Bashar al-Assad and his partners in Saudi Arabia, his partners in UAE, things that that wouldn't have happened perhaps a few years ago. And the US being so tied up perhaps with other conflicts in the world and conflicts in the region, not really raising much of an eyebrow there. In your mind, are we going to see Syria reintegrated, not just regionally but globally?
PM Masrour Barzani: You see, when we're talking about Syria, we have to be careful about what part of Syria we're talking about. There is not one government controlling the entire territories of Syria. We have Syrian government, we have Russia, we have Iran, we have Turkey, we have the United States, we have the rest of the coalition. So we have different groups controlling different parts of the country. But if you mean the government in Damascus, we've seen that over the years, you know, there was maximum pressure on the government. Everybody was calling for the overthrow of the regime. And now there is, once again, you know, reopening the channels with the government and trying to reintegrate into the first, to the Arab League and also to the international community. I think it depends on the cost of whatever action you take. If the decision is on, is to overthrow the regime, you have to look at the cost of that and the meaning of what that means actually to the rest of the region and the rest of the players. And if integrating the government into the international community will bring more peace, I think that's something that I believe now many countries are looking at.
Ms. Hadley Gamble: If the Trump administration were to enact maximum pressure 2.0, for example, do you believe that would accelerate Syria's return to the international order?
PM Masrour Barzani: I don't know about Syria, but I believe every actor has to rethink. You know, if they want to benefit from normal relations with the United States and other players in the region. They have to, they have to perhaps revive their current policies and, and adopt a new a new policy that that's acceptable. And that would go with, you know, for Syria as well, I think.
Ms. Hadley Gamble: Yeah. There's a narrative in the West that Iraq is held hostage, that Baghdad is held hostage to Iran. Is that a fair assessment? That Iraq is held hostage by Iran?
PM Masrour Barzani: Well, that's, that's your terminology. But, you know, there's a lot of influence. Iran has a lot of influence in Iraq. That's true. Now whether this is a decision that Iraqis have made or it's a decision that's been imposed, I think you better ask that question ask Baghdad that question. Is this something that they are happy with or not? But we definitely know that Iran is an important neighbor for Iraq, and it's normal for Iraq to have normal relations with Iran. Now the level of, influence and the nature of relations between Baghdad and Iran, I don't control that. You have to ask them.
Ms. Hadley Gamble: I'm waiting for my invitation. Walk me through this one. When you think about what happens next, with regards to the internal politics, and I'm talking about the regional dynamic. We've seen enormous strides for women made in Saudi Arabia, something that those of us who cover the region never thought perhaps we would see. We've seen women, of course, taking a major role in the UAE government, for example. Half of the parliament are women. And we see strides made for women here in your government as well. But it seems as if in Baghdad, things are really rolling back, and I'm talking about the possibility that children can be married off at the age of 9. Many in the international human rights community now say that this is tantamount to child rape. In your mind, is that worrying?
PM Masrour Barzani: Yes. You know, Iraq was one of the most advanced Middle Eastern countries in terms of promoting women's rights. Unfortunately, there are factors that are affecting and influencing the rights of women in countries where poverty, injustice, illiteracy, is widespread. And unfortunately, over the years, Iraq hasn't been in its best capacity. We've seen that there's a lot of illiteracy. There is a lot of women that are dropping out of college and school. Definitely, this is going to affect the behavior of the society and also the women themselves, the lack of confidence and that they don't want to participate in the community. In Kurdistan, we have, I think, in a different situation. Our culture is also different. If you look at our history, women have always had greater freedom and they have had more rights. And over the years, we have tried to give more power to women by promoting their participation in the parliament. There are many parliamentarians that are women today and many ministers in the cabinet that are women and many directors and many administrators that are now women and many women are now businesswomen, very successful businesswomen. So we are trying to give equal opportunities. I'm a little sensitive about saying women's rights because I think they have to have equal rights as men and you need to pave the road for them.
Ms. Hadley Gamble: And just to be clear, that means you would add advocate for equal pay for equal work?
PM Masrour Barzani: Yes.
Ms. Hadley Gamble: Every time?
PM Masrour Barzani: Absolutely. Yeah.
Ms. Hadley Gamble: Is that something you enforce in your government?
PM Masrour Barzani: Well, absolutely. Yes.
Ms. Hadley Gamble: Yeah. In your mind, what are the things that can be used in the private sector to encourage that? And I'm talking about women on boards.
PM Masrour Barzani: Look, you need to, you need to protect everyone's rights. Let's forget women. Okay? Let's talk about citizens, humans. Everyone in the country should have equal rights. There are people who are in the public sector, there are people who are in the private sector. One of the reasons why private sector in the country has been weak, because they were afraid of, retirement. In the private sector, there was no law for anyone that, after, you know, a few years that they would be retired and, they would have pension afterwards. And now we have passed a law in Kurdistan to secure the retirement for private sector as well. This is encouraging many people to not seek the government employment or the public sector, but to look at private sector. So if you provide, more opportunities for them, if you create an environment where private sector can grow, I believe that's going to take care of many of the pressing issues that we are facing today, not only about women, but about the whole economy. Yeah.
Ms. Hadley Gamble: In your mind, what is the greatest existential threat to this region today?
PM Masrour Barzani: Wow. This is a very tough question.
Ms. Hadley Gamble: I have a reputation.
PM Masrour Barzani: I think lack of trust. I think, you know, history has proven that when communities don't trust each other, when systems are built on imposing ideas, when stronger players are dictating and disrespecting others, when democracy means only the rule of majority without regarding the rule of minorities. That's difficult to handle, and it's difficult to create a society where everybody would be happy. You need to feel the sense of belonging, and in order to belong to a society or to a country, you need to feel that you're equal. So the lack of equality, the lack of trust, I believe, is the source of many of the problems that we have.
Ms. Hadley Gamble: How do you address that lack of trust?
PM Masrour Barzani: Reverse that. Build trust and provide, you know, equal, environments and, you know, be just. So that's exactly what's needed. And if we if we can build trust and provide, equal opportunities to everyone, I think that will take care of it.
Ms. Hadley Gamble: Do you still believe the United States is a partner to trust?
PM Masrour Barzani: The United States? Yes. I do. Because, look, I mean, United States is not just about 1 person or what one administration. United States is a successful country based on values of democracy and principles of equality and freedom. So, yes, US wouldn't be successful if it wasn't a place that was built on the right foundations. And when you have institutions that endorse these foundations, it needs to be trusted.
Ms. Hadley Gamble: Your excellency, thank you so much. Thank you.
PM Masrour Barzani: Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you.