EXTENDED: PM Masrour Barzani addresses climate change, economic infrastructure in international symposium

ERBIL (Kurdistan 24) – The Kurdistan Regional Government (KRG) is working to build a strong economic infrastructure in the Kurdistan Region, and we have made significant efforts to combat the threats of climate change and environmental pollution in the region.

Kurdistan Region (KRG) Prime Minister Masrour Barzani attended a panel discussion at an international symposium on drought and the impacts of climate change on the political, economic, and demographic situation in Iraq in Erbil on Sunday evening.

During the discussions, the latest developments in the Kurdistan Region and Iraq were highlighted. The panel was moderated by Adel Bakhawan, director of the French Center for Research on Iraq.

Prime Minister Masrour Barzani stated that the triangle of governance of any country is the economy, political stability, and security; building a strong economic infrastructure is the basis of any country's progress.

"Digitalization and reform of the banking system can make a difference in the development of the country's economy," he explained.

Below is the transcript of the entire discussion:

Dr. Adel Bakhawan: Mr. Prime Minister, welcome to this symposium, which is attended by Iraqi, Kurdish, and French political elites, academic, research, and scientific elites from Baghdad, Erbil, and Paris. There are 13 French, 90 Iraqis, and the rest are from Kurdistan. Here, we are going to be confronted by two groups of elites, an academic one, and political elite. You were born on March 2, 1969. In 2050, you will be 81 years old. When you are 81 years old, Iraq will have 80 million populations, by that time 78,000 square meters of fertile land has vanished. Several million, or even more precisely 20 million people, have come to the Kurdistan Region from the southern parts of Iraq, victims of climate change and political and climate problems. Given this scenario, how would you be able to govern and care for all these people?

Prime Minister: In the name of God, I thank you very much, Dr. Bakhawan. I warmly welcome the dear participants, both those who came from France, other Iraqi cities, and others in Kurdistan. I thank everyone for their presence, and I welcome them. I would like to thank the French Research Center in Iraq, Bahr al-Ulum Institute, and Kurdistan University-Erbil for organizing this meeting and this important issue. Let's talk about the present. Age is in God's hands, and God knows what will happen in a few years. But what is important to talk about now is how to deal with these climate threats that are widely discussed and researched, and experts say that if appropriate solutions are not found, they may become a threat to an area or to the people living in these areas. I want to start with the fact that since the beginning of human existence, man has tried to live in an environment in which he can produce the necessities of life: food, water, in which he can continue to live. If the environment is not suitable, he will migrate and try to find water and food. What we are seeing now is that there has been rapid climate change for several years, and the environment is difficult for many people in many areas to live in. Demographic change has occurred or will occur in many of these areas if immediate solutions are not found. Here are several types of solutions, one of which is in the area where you live, how you can protect the nature that is suitable for living in it. Environmentalism is very important as a culture. I listened to several speeches this morning and heard that we must do this and take these steps, but the most important thing, I think, is the culture of environmental protection. How can we develop environmental education in our society? How can children, youth, and others protect the existing environment? In addition, how can we repair the negative impact on the environment? For example, desertification, or destruction of forests. How can we restore forests? How can we create an appropriate environment for people to stay where they are instead of migrating gradually, or to move back gradually? There are a number of reasons for this, and a number of measures are needed by the authorities, not only in a particular region, but at the global level, to face such problems, because the environment is not a problem that only relates to a particular region. But the migration of these people can create problems for another area. This is a mixed problem, and a mixed solution must be found.

Dr. Adel Bakhawan: This is very true. This issue is related to Kurdistan, Iraq, climate change in Iraq, Turkey, Syria, now, and abroad. But if we stay at the Iraqi level, you asked some beautiful questions. You are at the center of decision-making. You are two governments, one in Baghdad and one in Erbil. You have a historic duty. What are you doing to prevent this disaster?

Prime Minister: That's a valid question. As you mentioned, the researcher may present the risks, but it is up to the government and the state to work on these risks as an executive body and take the necessary measures to address them. Not now, we in the Kurdistan Region have felt this threat for a long time and have been working to address them. For example, we have taken good steps in building ponds or dams to absorb and not waste water, reviving forests in Kurdistan. In terms of energy, I can say that Kurdistan is the first place in Iraq where wasted gas from the refineries is now recovered in Kurdistan in some places, and in some places, we have other programs to recover all the gas and turn it into energy instead of letting it be wasted and cause further pollutions.

In Kurdistan, we have taken some of these steps and we need to do more, but much of that is due to the resources available. The federal government must fulfill its historic duty. The resources available to the federal government should be allocated and invested in areas that are suitable for the revival of the region's nature. Kurdistan is suitable in many ways. Many dams can be built in Kurdistan. The issue of forest revival can be developed from Kurdistan and gradually spread to other parts of Iraq. More investment is also needed in other parts of Iraq itself. I heard you talk about a very large amount of money that should be allocated, but this is a necessity, and it must be done so that people do not migrate from one area to another. I am not saying that everything has been done, but the necessary steps have been taken. If there is more capacity, better coordination and understanding with the federal government, I think we can take much better steps.

Dr. Adel Bakhawan: Mr. Prime Minister, I know you. We have had several dialogues. You are one of those people who do not like theory very much and like concrete things. Even if you do all these things in the Kurdistan Region, if not in Basra, Najaf, Karbala, Samawa, and Baghdad, it will not yield any national results. Will the Iraqi government come forward to help you prevent this disaster or not? If not, why not?

Prime Minister: I think you can ask this question to the authorities in Baghdad. I cannot answer their questions on behalf of anyone. But what is on the region as a duty is on us, we are ready because as I mentioned at the beginning, we live in an interconnected country. What happens in Kurdistan has an impact on other Iraqi cities. What happens in other Iraqi cities has an impact on Kurdistan. For us to be able to work together, I think more serious work is needed. More discussion is needed. Better understanding is needed. How can we help each other to prevent, for example, people from migrating from the marshlands? How can we prevent Anbar from becoming more desertified? How can we use the Tigris and Euphrates rivers more for agriculture? We have taken good steps in the Kurdistan Region. We hope that the federal government will help us and that the experience and work we have done here will be repeated elsewhere. I can give you some examples. In the Kurdistan Region or in Iraq in general, there is a lot of reliance on oil and gas for revenue. This may end in a while, after a few decades. What will be the source of revenue in Iraq after that? Is its nature appropriate for us to consider other sources? Yes, agriculture is one of the things that can certainly be invested in and become an important source of food security for Iraq and beyond. In the Kurdistan Region, we have done these things, we have developed agriculture, and for example, the investment in potatoes in Kurdistan was 25,000 tons before this cabinet. After we insisted on supporting this sector, production of potatoes has risen to approximately 800,000 tons.

This is an example that can be developed elsewhere in wheat, barley, and many other agricultural crops throughout Iraq. This is an example of how we can help each other, draw on experiences that we can certainly have an impact on preventing or at least slowing the negative impact of climate change.

Dr. Adel Bakhawan: You said that you are the prime minister of the Kurdistan Regional Government, so your first duty is to protect the Kurdistan Region and your other duty is to negotiate with the federal government, and we should direct our questions to the Baghdad government. I will stay in the Kurdistan Region. If you allow me, I would like one of our researchers, Fabrice Balanche, who has some data about the Kurdistan Region to present his data.

Fabrice Balanche: I am optimistic about the Kurdistan Region, but by 2050, Iraq's population will reach 80 million people. The Kurds may be 10 million because there are more people born in Iraq. This might cause migration to increase from other parts of Iraq to Kurdistan. Mass migrations have started now. Just like how during the Saddam era, people were forced to move to the Kurdistan Region to dissolve the Kurds among other communities, which reduced the number of Kurds in the Kurdistan Region. How would you face this threat?

Prime Minister: The dangers that were mentioned are true. I agree that if immediate steps are not taken, migration from one region to another may start. We have seen that this is not a threat for the future, but for the current times as we live them now. We see that in many places citizens who have a good and fertile area are being robbed. Imported settlers force the original settlers to evict their lands and the imported settlers then are supported to own the land. This does not stop here. What we are talking about is that it is now assumed that this migration will end within Iraq itself, but it is not. What is the duty of the Kurdistan Region, as I mentioned? First of all, we must protect the nature that exists in the Kurdistan Region, in order to prevent desertification from increasing here, wasting water, or destroying the nature that we have. This allows you to continue living yourself, but at the same time, it becomes an area where other people seek to migrate to from other areas that do not have a healthy environment, or desertification increases, or are forced to migrate because of the climate. Those people would seek to migrate here. If we are not able to meet all their needs, then where will they go? Then they will go somewhere else, in which case, I think a lot of migration from the Middle East will go to Europe, so this does not stop here and we should not look at this problem as a local problem that only happens in Iraq. It is true that Iraq is more affected by the current climate than any other place, but if this migration starts in Iraq, it will not stop in Kurdistan, it will go here to Europe. So I think everyone, including the Europeans, should come and help us find a solution, how we can fundamentally solve this problem. Because when migration starts, it brings with it a number of other problems. I mentioned this at Cop28. If this migration goes from one country to another, it will bring security, economic, cultural, and political problems. These European countries must deal with all these problems. But if they come now and think about solving the fundamental problems in the country itself, there may only be a financial cost to these countries that can prove helpful to their own countries. What can we do in Iraq? If they can, serious thought should be given to creating a much more orderly administration that does not lose the nature that exists in Iraq. I think Iraq has not reached the point where it does not have water. Compared to countries like Jordan and Syria, Iraq has water. But it has not used it well. Natural resource management in Iraq must be rethought to reduce waste. People should be educated on how to deal with the environment in such a way that it no longer destroys it and creates more, and the way of life in these countries should be such that they can use modern technology to produce their own needs. Education, as you mentioned, is a matter of population growth. It must adapt to the needs that this environment can provide.

Dr. Adel Bakhawan: Dr. Ibrahim Bahr al-Ulum from Najaf knows that this issue is very sensitive for them. Mr. Prime Minister, how do you convince an Iraqi citizen that having 13 children in such circumstances may be a little too much? How can an Iraqi citizen, Kurdistan to a lesser degree, because in Kurdistan the fertility rate does not exceed 1.9, but in the south, the rate reaches 4.9, you mentioned education, the United Nations says more than $570 million should be allocated to educate Iraqi citizens that having 13 or big family as that is just unmanageable and too much?

Prime Minister: The question is how can I convince them that 13 children are too many? I don’t think I would be able to convince them!

Dr. Adel Bakhawan: The question is how do you deal with it? You and Mohammed Shia Sudani are in the decision-making center. Money, decisions, and projects are in your hands and the historical responsibility is in your hands to reach the people of Najaf, Karbala, Samawa, Basra, and other areas.

Prime Minister: Let me tell you the truth, I don't have all the money. We have to fight every month to get the budget from Baghdad.

I pointed out that education must be made an important issue to make people understand that it is not only about how many children each family has but also about the future of the child. If people do not understand how to raise children, they will not think about how many children they have. But if they think about the livelihood of their child, can they raise this child in such a way that they can provide all the necessities of life from the beginning in terms of food, education, and daily living facilities for this child, if they can afford it, provide for the child, then they can have more children than others may not have. But if they do not have these facilities and do not have this kind of thinking, they should then think about controlling only the number of family in such a way that they can afford to support them. This is about education. This cannot be done by words and commands. People must be taught how to live with the environment in schools.

Dr. Adel Bakhawan: You mentioned that immigration is not only a threat to the national security of the Kurdistan Region but also a threat to Western countries. This might 100% be true. The growing populist politics has been able to scare the Europeans from the migrants and they have presented a grim picture of migrants to the ordinary Europeans. In Europe, they don't have anything called a “shaky state”. They have an infrastructure that allows them to digest these phenomena to some extent. What are you doing in the Kurdistan Region and in Iraq to build infrastructure for your society to get out of the so-called “shaky state”? to deal with major crises, economic crisis, and falling oil prices?

Prime Minister: Building a strong economic infrastructure in any country is necessary for you to create progress in this country. I think the triangle of governance in any country is three things: the economy, political stability, and security. If any of these things get in trouble, this country will shake and get in trouble. We in the Kurdistan Region have tried to have peace despite the fact that our region has lived in a very crisis area and there has been a lot of danger, but we have tried to have peace to do it. On the other hand, we have tried to build a strong economic infrastructure in Kurdistan because economic infrastructure makes people committed to construction and the future and to think about improving rather than destroying, both of which will help create a politically stable environment in this country. What you are talking about in European countries and countries that have institutions because they have worked on this triangle. We in Iraq and the Middle East, in the Kurdistan Region in particular, which is our responsibility, must work on this and we have worked. We have done a lot, for example, to build economic infrastructure, as I mentioned, by diversifying sources of income, not only relying on oil, not only relying on gas, using agriculture as a source of income, or to work to establish factories as an income-generating source, and of course, tourism to become a source of income for here. Whenever you have a strong source of income, then of course you can influence people's daily lives, people think better and think about political stability. These are all interconnected.

With the federal government, I hope we can reach a common understanding that not everything should be viewed from a political point of view. If the Kurdistan Region can take good steps in terms of building a strong economic infrastructure, The Kurdistan Region is moving towards strong economic stability. Let me give you an example. We in the Kurdistan Region have tried to focus on digitizing the economic system of the Kurdistan Region.

Dr. Adel Bakhawan: What is the digitalization of the Kurdistan Regional Government's economic system?

Prime Minister: Digitizing the banking system in the Kurdistan Region, digitizing government services for citizens, meeting the needs of the people, reducing routine, and increasing services, all of these have an impact on the way the economic system develops. The issue of banking or digitizing the banking system and moving away from the cash economy system, working on how to develop our country's economy. If you can establish an advanced economic system according to international standards or like developed countries, you must take advantage of the private sector, by banking, for example, the salaries of government employees and even the private sector; these are qualitative changes in advancing the economy of the country. If you have a good economy, this economy will enrich you. The income generated from this can be used to fight the kind of disasters you mentioned about the climate, how we can fight drought and desertification? All that needs funds and financing. Where does it come from? It is You who have to step it up yourself. We have taken good steps in the Kurdistan Region. Much of the infrastructure in the Kurdistan Region may not be visible and people may not notice it, but in the next few years it will be felt what steps we have taken to build that infrastructure. Other regions of Iraq should follow suit. Of course, this will be achieved by helping each other, not by political sensitivities preventing economic progress.

Jean-Marcou: Regarding the relations between the Kurdistan Region and Turkey, I would like to ask you how your relations are and whether Turkey has more interests with the Kurdistan Region than with Baghdad?

Prime Minister: Whether the Kurdistan Region likes it or not, it must deal with Iraq's neighbors within the framework of international policy. Turkey is a strong neighbor of Iraq and there are many common interests between Turkey and Iraq. Kurdistan, as part of Iraq, has many interests with Turkey. Perhaps one of the reasons why Turkey has had stronger relations with the Kurdistan Region has been the favorable business environment. The Kurdistan Region has become more peaceful and easier to work in. Turkish companies have invested more in the Kurdistan Region, but that does not mean that Turkey is not interested in investing in other parts of Iraq. These visits between the two countries are aimed at moving economic relations between the two countries to a more advanced stage, one of which is the construction of the railway from Turkey through Iraq to the Gulf countries. All communities, including Kurds, Turkmen, Christians, Shiites, and Sunnis, should benefit from this project. Iraq should not only be a link between the gulf and Europe, but that the Iraqi people themselves should benefit from this project.

So there are many common interests here. Turkey has water in its hands. Iraq has a lot of underground resources that can be used as negotiations with Turkey, how can the two countries use these natural resources, whether it is water, oil, or gas, trade in goods or human resources between the two countries. If built properly, both countries will benefit and Kurdistan will benefit from these relations as well.

Dr. Adel Bakhawan: I would like to ask you a question that may be a little difficult. What is happening now is only a hypothesis, but I would like you to hear an answer if possible, if not, then you can say“no comment”. Mr. Mohammed Shia Sudani's developed a very good relations with the Kurdistan Regional Government, I think it is one of the governments with which you have had very normal relations since 2003, the question is about the “Development Road Project”,  Why doesn't it pass through a small kilometer of Kurdistan Regional Government territory? What is the objective reason? why this road does not pass through the provinces of the Kurdistan Region?

Prime Minister: I can answer in another way that our view of this “Development Road Project”, if the proposal we have submitted to Baghdad is considered, will be much more useful than some people have adopted an alternative line. I still don't know what the final stage of this project will be because we still have meetings with Baghdad to reach a final decision on how it will be. What exists is a line from Turkey through Iraq to the Gulf. The problem is where it is going in Iraq. What we proposed earlier was to enter from Zakho, south of Duhok, east of the Tigris, to Mosul, from Mosul to Erbil, then to Kirkuk, then to Baghdad, then to Najaf and then to Basra. This was the proposal that experts in the Kurdistan Region believed was the best way because all communities, including Kurds, Turkmen, Christians, Shiites, and Sunnis, would benefit from it, and all major Iraqi cities would participate. If the other plan is considered which flows through a sparsely populated area and is empty across the Syrian border until it exits, then that would be less sensible.

Whatever the reason, it is a wrong plan and is not as useful as the other plan we have offered. We think what we are talking about is much, much better. What we have heard is that the people who submitted the project have told the Iraqi Prime Minister that this project is cheaper if it is done like this, because there are mountains, bridges, rivers, and hills. He has seen the area and knows this is not true. Let them go and do a field study to see which is cheaper east or west of the Tigris. If the issue is economic, which is less expensive, let them come and study the benefits of the project. If it is not economic, then your interpretation is correct, so the issue must be political. How can you implement a project that you know is better in one way than the other, but you choose the one that is less useful? I hope not and this has not reached the final stage. We will talk to the prime minister and officials in Baghdad again and we will try to develop this project not only for countries outside Iraq but also for the benefit of the whole of Iraq.

Dr. Adel Bakhawan: What I understood from your answer is that, first, we did not know that there are discussions between Erbil and Baghdad on this project. Secondly, I did not understand whether the issue is political or economic, that why I am going to ask the following question. As one of the main components of Iraq, Kurds, Shiites, and Sunnis, and especially following the October 10, 2021, where after a year of the elections the government was formed and it took a long time to do so, isn’t it time for a serious dialogue between the three components to discuss coexistence?

Prime Minister: This discussion was held in 2005. In 2005, all communities held an intensive meeting and we drafted a constitution. This constitution should be implemented as it is. What should be discussed now? The implementation of the constitution must be discussed. Because this dialogue has been held, all communities have sat down, we have written a constitution and we have determined the way to move forward step by step and build a new country. Now the unconstitutional dialogue will be about finding an alternative solution to the constitution, which I think is not appropriate. We must advocate how the constitution should be implemented as it is. If this dialogue is about how to implement the constitution as it is, then we should always support it, but the question is if one side is more responsible than the other for not implementing the principles of the constitution, then what mechanism does Iraq have? , under a historical responsibility. Why have these constitutional articles not been implemented? Who would then judge what the next step should be? So I think it's true that dialogue is always very, very important, but adherence to the agreements, especially adherence to the constitution, is very important to save Iraq at this stage and in the future.

Dr. Adel Bakhawan: From 2003 to 2005, Kurds, Shiites, and Sunnis created a new Iraq. None of these communities has more rights over the new Iraq than the other components. From 2003 to 2013, none of the components had imposed its will on the other. However, do you not feel that, since 2013, a Kurdish vacuum has been created in the past 10 years and one community in Baghdad considers itself the owner and considers other communities and components as a guest and says come back to Baghdad?

Prime Minister: We believe that every citizen in Iraq has equal rights to citizenship. Whether Kurds, Shiites, Sunnis, Turkmens, or Christians, as long as they are human beings, they must have equal rights to citizenship. When the rights of a nation or community are violated, or when part of the Iraqi community considers itself greater and violates the rights of other parties, then problems arise. The Kurds' withdrawal from Baghdad was not of their own will. The Kurds were systematically forced to withdraw from Baghdad. It was not that the Kurds themselves wanted to leave. But again, I am not saying that all the blame is placed on one side. The Kurds may have made a mistake, the Kurds may not have defended their rights properly; But we could now, I say, come and look at the mistakes and look at the steps that led Iraq on the wrong path, we may not reach a conclusion. We better think about how we can solve these problems. First, confidence must be restored to all Iraqi communities that there are equal rights for all citizens, regardless of your nationality or religion. Your equal right to citizenship must be protected. This trust must exist for Shiites, Sunnis, Kurds, and all other communities. How, you may ask? By guaranteeing that your constitutional rights are protected and not violated. But whenever the constitution becomes a document that I choose to deal with the way I please and implement what is in my interest and put aside what is not in my interest, this distrust increases. Therefore, the dialogue you mentioned to restore confidence in the constitutional rights of all communities must continue. We must be able to build that confidence. None of us has more rights than the other as a community and citizen, so we can solve the problems. I think there are these problems. We have often mentioned that Iraq's history has been full of problems, conflicts, troubles, and disasters. There is fear and we cannot deny that there is fear of repeating such disasters. There must be something that guarantees our existence and a stable future for the communities, entities, countries, and nations of Iraq in which the rights of all parties are protected.

Dr. Adel Bakhawan: Professor Michel Wieviorka, whose students were many of the French, European, and Latin American elites, including presidents, is one of the world's greatest thinkers who came up with the idea of globalism. He has a question to ask.

Professor Michel Wieviorka: First of all, I want to thank you. It is not every day that the prime minister participates in such an initiative. My question is that we are in a globalized world, but globalization is not the end of the nation-state. Therefore, if I talk about the Kurdish people, it is very strange and different; Kurds are a nation that we know as reliable, has a vast diaspora – France has a great number of Kurdish diaspora – but it is a nation without a state.  Since having a state is very important for a nation, my question is, do you believe that climate change is only a problem or a difficulty only for a state, or can it be the same when you are not a state? What is in Kurdistan's interest if it were a state? Or is it in its interest that it is not a state?

Prime Minister: It is not an easy question. Like any other nation, the Kurds have the right to be treated equally. What is appropriate for another nation must be appropriate for the Kurds. However, there are some historical facts and events and there is a current reality in which we live, let's see which is more in the interest of the Kurdistan Region.

One always reacts to the way one is treated. If the Kurds enjoy all their rights as an equally accepted party in Middle Eastern society, they may not want to reject or stop or make any other decision in this way, but when you are looked down upon and excluded and not treated equally, then you  do have to think that I'm not like you and less than you? Why is there a right for you and not for me?

Let's look at the other countries. The history of the formation of governments or independent states is not so old, but now let's look at Europe. For instance in Europe, the European Union was formed on the basis of interests. This led them to develop the idea that we can live with each other on the basis of interest, without rejecting each other or insisting that I must agree to the system. The Kurds are looking for an equal life with all other nations in the region. Again, what is lawful for all nations must be lawful for the Kurds. If we can live together and meet each other's needs, if we can further each other's interests together, then I think the Kurds want to live with other nations by faith. But if it is not accepted and always pushed to one side and treated at another level, this is not for me to answer, this is every Kurdish individual in his heart to answer this question in time. The Kurds must be treated as an equal nation with all other nations in the region.

Translation by: Kamaran Aziz